French activist, author, and film producer Frank Barat interviews Gabor Maté, diving into the complexities of trauma, guilt, and the ongoing genocide in Gaza and Palestine.
Maté offers insight into the Israeli psyche, analyzing how a society can become genocidal. They explore the psychological impact of witnessing atrocities, the historical roots of violence and oppression, and the emotional responses triggered by such horrors.
In this conversation, Gabor Maté reflects on the trauma and guilt many are feeling in response to the ongoing atrocities in Gaza, Palestine, and Lebanon. They begin by describing the paralyzing impact of seeing horrifying images of people burned alive in Gaza, which has left people across the world, especially in Europe and the U.S., grappling with how to process their governments' complicity. Gabor Maté emphasizes that the escalating cruelty of such atrocities resembles historical events like the Holocaust, where unchecked perpetrators grew more ruthless, and imperial powers enabled greater atrocities over time.
Gabor Maté points to a lack of guilt in Western societies, noting how colonial atrocities, such as Belgium's genocide in Congo, remain under-discussed. This denial of historical responsibility perpetuates indifference toward current global atrocities. Western nations, including the U.K. and Belgium, have long celebrated their colonial pasts while ignoring the mass murders committed in the Global South. This failure to confront history makes it harder for people to acknowledge or act against the present-day suffering in places like Gaza.
While some feel paralyzed by guilt, Gabor Maté urges people to channel their outrage productively. Rather than succumbing to guilt, which implies personal responsibility for acts one did not commit, the focus should be on righteous anger at the continued support for ethnic cleansing and colonization by Western governments. They express frustration that, despite their opposition to Israeli actions and years of activism, these efforts have not yet saved any lives. However, Gabor Maté rejects guilt and advocates for action grounded in moral truth and human decency.
In the end, Gabor Maté calls for continued dialogue and awakening, despite the overwhelming sense of helplessness. More people are recognizing the horrors of Zionism and its ties to colonialism. The challenge is to remain awake, hold onto humanity, and contribute to a broader, long-term awakening that might one day make a difference—even as the suffering of Palestinians continues to break hearts daily.
The conversation discusses whether the extreme cruelty and sadism seen in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict were always inherent in the Zionist project. Gabor reflects that Zionism began with a genuine desire to establish a Jewish state for persecuted Jews, but the fundamental problem was that Palestine was already inhabited. From the beginning, the Zionist movement relied on imperial powers, like Britain, to support its aims, which required the suppression and eventual oppression of the Palestinian people. This cruelty was not initially intended but became necessary to achieve the Zionist goal, leading to increasing brutality over time.
Gabor mentions that some early Zionist thinkers, like Ahad Ha’am, foresaw the consequences of the Zionist movement, warning that it would result in one small group oppressing another. However, most Zionist leaders accepted that oppressing the indigenous Palestinians was a necessary evil. Over time, this led to a hardening of attitudes and the emergence of a more brutal, cynical approach, particularly after the occupation of the Palestinian territories in 1967. Gabor Maté argues that Zionist actions have increasingly taken on elements of fascism, oppression, and sadism as a natural consequence of their ongoing efforts to maintain control.
The discussion then shifts to the psychological conditioning of Israeli citizens. Gabor points out that Israeli children are indoctrinated from a young age to fear and hate Arabs, while believing in their own superiority and entitlement to the land. This brainwashing, coupled with generational trauma from the Holocaust, helps explain the extreme acts of violence and cruelty committed by Israeli soldiers. Despite the sadistic behavior, such as soldiers mocking Palestinians and posting videos of destruction on social media, these actions are justified within Israeli society due to deeply ingrained nationalist propaganda and a glorification of the military.
Maté concludes by emphasizing the tragic senselessness of these acts, particularly the way the Israeli army is celebrated as "the most moral army" despite committing war crimes. The dehumanization of Palestinians and the lack of critical examination of Israeli actions within its own society contribute to the ongoing atrocities. Gabor acknowledges that, at a certain point, words seem inadequate to fully describe the depth of the violence and suffering, leaving many at a loss for how to address the situation.
Gabor Maté reflects on the overwhelming sense of helplessness many feel when witnessing the horrors in Gaza, emphasizing that "uselessness" is not a feeling but a self-judgment. He urges people to sit with their emotions and understand that they're not alone in their heartbreak. He highlights his recent experiences in Europe, where he met many individuals who share the same feelings of despair and helplessness, despite the majority often turning a blind eye to such atrocities. Gabor Maté encourages people to connect with others feeling the same way, allowing themselves to fully experience their emotions.
He further shares his personal experience, stating that this current period, with its graphic displays of violence available through social media, is one of the darkest in his memory. He compares it to other historical events, such as the Vietnam War, pointing out that while the Vietnamese had the capacity to fight back, Palestinians today face an overwhelmingly one-sided conflict. The constant exposure to images of violence, combined with the dishonesty and hypocrisy in the Western media, makes it extremely challenging for individuals to stay morally grounded and committed to the truth.
The conversation shifts to the irony and absurdity of Israel claiming to act in the name of Jews. Gabor Maté rejects this notion, explaining that Zionism has never been the universal ideology among Jews. He honors the Jewish tradition of prophets who spoke truth to power and denounced injustice. Gabor Maté also argues that Zionism will ultimately be seen as a disaster in Jewish history, much like the zealots who led the revolt against Rome. He believes Zionism’s reliance on foreign imperial powers, especially the U.S., makes it unsustainable in the long term.
In conclusion, Gabor Maté connects the current atrocities in Gaza to broader historical patterns of trauma, emphasizing that the psychological and emotional toll on Palestinians is often reduced to numbers in the media. He recalls a report after Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009, which found that 60% of children in Gaza had lost the will to live, illustrating the profound human cost of the ongoing violence. This underscores the devastating long-term impact of the conflict on Palestinian society.
Maté reflects on the deep psychological scars inflicted on Palestinian children by the ongoing violence. He mentions a 2004 psychiatric report, which found that 95% of Palestinian children were showing symptoms of trauma even before Hamas came to power. These traumatized children, he notes, are the ones who later acted on October 7th, fuelled by despair and rage.
He expresses grave concern for Gaza's future, suggesting that it could be further reduced into an even smaller enclave or a "concentration camp" by Israel. Despite the Palestinians' resilience and courage, he fears for their future given Israel's military dominance. He also warns that the atrocities in Gaza are setting a dangerous precedent, suggesting that it could become "the new normal" in a world dominated by powerful entities that maintain inequality. He believes that the strong Western support for Israel serves as a message to other nations not to challenge the existing global order.
The conversation ends with a call to continue raising awareness and showing solidarity with Palestinians, offering them the assurance that they are not alone.
You can find more from Frank Barat on instagram.com/4frankbarat or Telegram t.me/Palestine_FB